In which I jot down a bit of headcanon about Hayden&Innes

[scarletmorning]

I was thinking about how far they would go to accomplish something, mostly win a fight/war. (That was kinda a left-over musing from the Vigarde&Lyon fic Sacrifices.) I was musing about both of them, because I love to compare Hayden with Innes (and Fado with Ephraim), because they are canonically quite similar in personality. What mainly prompted this musing was a Subway to Sally song, though, "Die Schlacht".

Manchmal muss man, um zu siegen (In order to win you sometimes have to don
keusche Unschuldsmiene zeigen;  (a chaste and innocent air;
sich in wahrer Demut üben,   (practice living in true lowliness,
schüchtern sein und ganz bescheiden. (acting shy and meek)

Manchmal muss man, um zu siegen (In order to win you sometimes have to
Freunde morden und verraten; (murder friends and betray them;
man muss lügen und betrügen (you have to lie and cheat,
man muss sähen böse Saaten. (you have to sow the seeds of evil.) Subway to Sally - Die Schlacht

The translation is not the best, because it's almost impossible to keep the rhythm intact (and you really cannot replicate the grammatical structure of the verses into English. The grammar systems are too different). So, this whole thing sparked my wondering:

What would Hayden and Innes be willing to do to reach their goals? Edit: I'm not thinking straight today so I merged two different situations into one. The "would they sacrifice family" thought is actually separate from the "how far would they go" thought. Go, me >> To clarify further; the "would they sacrifice family" assumes a "sacrifice one person or hundreds of others will die/suffer horribly" situation.

And I came to the conclusion that under almost no circumstance Hayden would betray his family and friends. If his "friends" gave him reason to, he might (only if no other possible solution works). Hayden would never (and I mean never) sacrifice his family. For nothing. He might sacrifice his friends if he is pressed to do it (it would haunt him for the rest of his life, but he would). His family is Hayden´s big weakness, though, especially Tana and his wife. He would rather put himself (and everybody else) in danger than his daughter and wife (Innes is a bit of an exception since he's a soldier. He's more prepared to sacrifice a soldier. Yes, Tana is a soldier as well, but, well, Hayden doesn't truly accept it in his heart.)

He would lie and cheat. As long as he considers his cause good and justified, he would have absolutely no problems with that. The same with provoking disputes; though he would try to not let it grow out of control.

Hayden would put on a false act to get what he wants/needs. He would probably not like it, but he would rock it. He is a good actor.

Now, Innes on the other hand... He is the same in regard to lying/cheating and putting on a false act (though I believe he wouldn't be as good as Hayden at acting innocent).

So, what about sacrificing friends and family? I took me long to come to a conclusion. But in the end... yes, I believe Innes would sacrifice them. He wouldn't particularly like it, of course, and he would try to find another solution, but in the end he would do it. Innes would go farther than Hayden.

(But to counterbalance that; I believe that Hayden is more conniving and back-stabbing than Innes. Innes tends to be more honest, because he wasn't taught as much as Hayden to be conniving (with the strong conflicts with Grado back then, Hayden was highly encouraged to be... mean to them))

---

Unrelated to that, I'm kinda wondering if it's strange that I never assign specific songs to characters. Maybe because I tend to never listen to the lyrics (the only thing that is important for me is that the melody is nice and that the sound of the voice is nice and fits) and if I do, only if they're fun or creepy. I mean, I rarely listen to German music (and then it falls under the mentioned categories) and I don't bother to pay attention to lyrics in other languages. And honestly... I hate it when I understand the lyrics. They always distract me from the music itself and therewith take all my enjoyment away. That's the reason why in general I hate German music. I do not want to know what you're singing about. Normally it's cheesy or stupid or nonsensical or just plain horrible. If the lyrics are in a different language, I at least don't notice how horrible the lyrics are. >8X

Alright, enough ranting for today.

Comments

[raphiael]

Not sure about Innes. I mean, the man dismisses a pack of mercenaries he doesn't even know so they won't be killed. He has that front of "I don't need you, I can take care of myself, GTFO" -- but given the script?


Gerik: Sounds like you're trying to make sure you're the only one who dies.

Innes: ...... Fool. I've no intention of dying. But there can be no false hope of reinforcements riding in to save the day. You and I are not the same. You're a commoner, and I'm Frelia's heir. We of noble birth do not shirk the duties to which we are born.

Gerik: ......

Innes: What are you waiting for? You may go.

Gerik: Well played, milord. I've always loved the melodrama of martyrdom... There's no way I can abandon you after that fine performance. I'm staying with you. To the end.

If he's willing to face an oncoming army alone to spare a bunch of strangers, I can't see him sacrificing the people he's protective of in canon. Maybe he'd throw another country under the bus, but I think willingly letting someone he cared about get hurt would be pretty out of character.

[crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but here he has the possibility to send them away (and it would theoretically work). I was more picturing a situation of "either you do this or everybody will suffer because of you". I'd say that Innes would "sacrifice one for hundreds of people". Hayden wouldn't if those person is a family member; he would sacrifice those hundreds. If that makes more sense?

[raphiael]

That's not the only case where Innes is unwilling to let anything happen to people he cares about, though. Both his Eirika and Tana supports have him taking the fall to avoid letting them get hurt or even just get punished. Innes even goes so far as to worry over Tana marrying Ephraim, not because he hates Ephraim's guts, but because he's afraid she'll be hurt by it. (and given their supports, I'd count him right.) A union with Renais like that would be plenty advantageous for Frelia (which is huge compared to one woman's happiness), but Tana's welfare seems to come first. He might be politically savvy, but consistently, he's unwilling to sacrifice people he cares about.

And if we're going to go with Hayden being the one more willing . . . Hayden sends his son off to war without much thought, doesn't he? Innes can handle it, of course, but that's hardly a guarantee. I mean, there's very little canon on him, but in this case I think it's pretty evident.

[crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com]

Hmhm, I see what you mean. I obviously need either to look at him again or just avoid him (and knowing how he infuriates me sometimes, I should probably choose the latter...)

Well, I don't believe Innes and Tana are comparable here. Because, as sad as it makes me to say, Innes is a soldier (male soldier) and Tana is his little girl. He trained Innes to become who he is. Not so with Tana. Now, Frelia is of course the land of the pegasi and therefore has a history of female soldiers so he should know that women can very well be great soldiers. That doesn't mean that Hayden can't believe that Tana would never be able to become one or be strong enough (which is clearly wrong). So it's a strange mixture of overprotectiveness, no trust in Tana´s true abilities and the tendency to think that at least Tana is not cut out to be a soldier.

[raphiael]

What I mean is, it's still a sacrifice of sorts, done to aid Frelia (and the entire continent, really.) Trained or not, there was a good chance Innes would end up dead - and Hayden was willing to risk that to defend the rest of the continent from Grado's craziness. He could have just as well said the non-royal military types were enough to give, and keep Innes by his side - thus placing his child over the strategical benefit. So I think saying he wouldn't ever sacrifice family for a greater cause goes against actions he is clearly willing to take.

[crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com]

Hm, I get the feeling that I have a different definition of "sacrifice" than you. Sending Innes to Jehanna doesn't count as a sacrifice for me. I see it more as a situation of "hand me this person over" and not a more abstract "sending someone to war". It is more... personal? I dunno, for me those situations aren't comparable :/

[raphiael]

It's still a matter of being willing to let a loved one die for the Greater Good, isn't it? It's not a direct you, die now or whatever, but I'd say it's pretty hard not to compare.

[crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com]

Imo, it's not so easily comparable, because the circumstances are different. In the case of a sacrifice you only have two choices, either "small bad" or "great bad". While in the case of "sending to war", you have hundreds of possible outcomes. And there is a relatively great chance that Innes can get through alive (especially since sneakiness runs in the family and Hayden has some confidence in Innes´ survival instinct. It's more like... Hayden doesn't expect/knows Innes will definitely not survive. In case of the sacrifice, he will and there is no other way this could end. As long as there is a reasonable chance that survival is possible, the sacrifice situation doesn't apply.

(That doesn't apply to Tana for afore mentioned reasons.)

[crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com]

Raphi, do you mind if we drop this discussion? This whole thing made me go through my characterization of Innes and Tana again, especially the issues I see between them and with focus on Tana, and now (after the whole England debacle) some of the issues hit home very close. It send me into a pretty unstable emotional state and further discussing the Frelians would worsen it. Is that alright with you?

[raphiael]

Yeah, I figured, that's why I didn't reply c:

[crimsonmorgan.livejournal.com]

Oh, wait, no, I'm mixing up two thoughts, I just noticed. Which makes the beginning of my entry wrong. I was more thinking about a situation described in my other comment AND a "how far would they go". Gawd, self.

Aye, so on that account, I admit, I really shouldn't philosophise about Innes. I clearly haven't a good enough grasp on him v_v

(Gotta edit that)

[mark-asphodel.livejournal.com]

Maybe he'd throw another country under the bus, but I think willingly letting someone he cared about get hurt would be pretty out of character.

Yeah. I mean, I like Innes because I think he has the potential to be one of the most Machiavellian and calculating "good guy" characters in the franchise, but the scene with Gerik and the mercenaries says a great deal about his character and his evaluation of the worth of other human beings.