I am bugged
6/6/11 22:36![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
scarletmorningTriggered by my thinking about Uther and his childlessness I started thinking about an Ephraim-related phenomenon that I find... unbelievable. I didn't notice at first what bugged me about it, but now I know.
I find it incredibly unlikely that Ephraim'll be allowed to not marry.
(I know that there are people on my flist who support that theory or at least have written him that way. So I hope for a little discussion (and I hope no negative feelings arise from my questioning).)
So, end of war, we know that Ephraim and Eirika are the last of their family. Ephraim becomes king. What happens to Eirika is related but to that in a second. Because first; we all agree that he needs heirs, right? Since they are the last of their family, they have no cousins/uncles/aunts/etc. who could provide, which obviously means that either Ephraim or Eirika have to produce them.
Now, one argument is that Eirika can just provide the heirs, then Ephraim can stay single. That argument is flawed for several reasons (related to her marriage options):
1. Eirika marries Innes and goes to Frelia: her children will become Frelia´s heirs, not Renais. In an emergency they might become Renais´ heirs, BUT:
- what would that mean to Renais´ independency? How easy would it be for Innes to influence his child in Renais and depending on the character of the child how would it act in negotiations with his parents? And following this theory: would the Renaitian nobles even allow that? Eirika may originally be from Renais, but that doesn't mean that they would accept the foreign heir. And if they're all against it, the Frelian child would have no chance. It would have to face a rebellion as soon as it ascends the throne.
- what if they have only one living child? Then Renais would have no heir at all.
- what if neither Eirika nor Innes (or at least one of them) are fertile and they have no children anyway?
2. Eirika marries Saleh: she's away and any children would grow up in Caer Pelyn.
- would the nobles accept a child who was not raised to become king/queen and has no idea what it has to do? And more important; was not raised in Renais and is not used to its customs? Perhaps, but only because they might try to influence it.
- what if they are both not fertile?
- what if non of their children survive?
- what if non of their children want to become heir? I can see them not forcing them to do it.
3. Eirika marries Seth: she stays in Renais and this one is actually (imo) the one pairing where it would be the most probable that her child becomes heir. But:
- what if neither of them is fertile?
- what if all their children die?
So, are the chances that those things happen, especially infertility, so small that it is worth risking it?
No. They are the last of their family. They have to do everything to ensure that they don't die out. And Ephraim can't put all responsibility on Eirika´s shoulders. It would not be possible that he never marries. He has to at least try to get heirs. This is not a question of wanting, but having to do (something). He's king. He has to do things he might not like but which are necessary. There is no choice involved.
So, Ephraim has to marry. It wouldn't have to do anything with love and if he finds a wife who understands this, there is no problem. Just find the daughter of the noble who has the best connections/most money/has things you need/is someone you need an alliance with and marry her. That easy. And advantageous.
Related to that: one child is not enough. I know that is more thinking of real life here, but; what if it dies? There's a plague, it has a stupid accident, whatever. Death can come quickly. There needs to be some security that at least one child lives long enough to marry itself and continue the line. Yes, real life example here and before the time FE is more or less located timewise, but bear with me; Charlemange. He had twelve children (at least) and five sons. Four of them should inherit his empire (the child of his first wife was excluded). Unfortunately in the end only one son lived long enough to be able to inherit the empire. Of course it is arguable if this could apply to Magvel at all, especially before the game happenings. But how does the situation after the war look like? Destruction and zombies everywhere. Perfect for sicknesses and illnesses to turn into pandemics. Shortage on food and money. Poverty. In such a time of unrest they shouldn't risk anything.
So, a king not having any children of his own: not believable in my opinion. I would need a very good explanation to believe it.
And for Uther: if people really believe the sickness his parents died of is hereditary then he should get many children as well. Hector doesn't seem to have the sickness so maybe at least one of Uther´s children might be spared as well. His sickness is, imo, an argument for children/marriage, not against it.
Which reminds me; marriage = alliance. Why would you want to waste the chance to forge such a firm alliance? Real life practice again: that was what daughters were for. Forging alliances (Being like hostages in a way). And it's not like the daughters were stupid and just send there to sit around and birth children. For the fathers marrying a daughter to an enemy to make peace meant having one of your own "men" behind the enemies lines. That could be highly practicable. (It still was no fun for the daughters, but, uhm, well it was like that, unfortunately and they couldn't do much against it) Which makes the whole "king/queen not marrying" even more unlikely.
And related to that; in the case of Eirika/Innes I personally think that Ephraim/Tana is highly unlikely. They already have one tie with Frelia. They shouldn't waste the opportunity; Ephraim should marry someone from the other countries. Grado would be a good option, I believe. Building friendly connections with them can only be to Ephraim´s and Grado´s advantage. Maybe the daughter of an influential noble.
so tl;dr I want a nice discussion about Ephraim´s single status because I find it improbable.
I find it incredibly unlikely that Ephraim'll be allowed to not marry.
(I know that there are people on my flist who support that theory or at least have written him that way. So I hope for a little discussion (and I hope no negative feelings arise from my questioning).)
So, end of war, we know that Ephraim and Eirika are the last of their family. Ephraim becomes king. What happens to Eirika is related but to that in a second. Because first; we all agree that he needs heirs, right? Since they are the last of their family, they have no cousins/uncles/aunts/etc. who could provide, which obviously means that either Ephraim or Eirika have to produce them.
Now, one argument is that Eirika can just provide the heirs, then Ephraim can stay single. That argument is flawed for several reasons (related to her marriage options):
1. Eirika marries Innes and goes to Frelia: her children will become Frelia´s heirs, not Renais. In an emergency they might become Renais´ heirs, BUT:
- what would that mean to Renais´ independency? How easy would it be for Innes to influence his child in Renais and depending on the character of the child how would it act in negotiations with his parents? And following this theory: would the Renaitian nobles even allow that? Eirika may originally be from Renais, but that doesn't mean that they would accept the foreign heir. And if they're all against it, the Frelian child would have no chance. It would have to face a rebellion as soon as it ascends the throne.
- what if they have only one living child? Then Renais would have no heir at all.
- what if neither Eirika nor Innes (or at least one of them) are fertile and they have no children anyway?
2. Eirika marries Saleh: she's away and any children would grow up in Caer Pelyn.
- would the nobles accept a child who was not raised to become king/queen and has no idea what it has to do? And more important; was not raised in Renais and is not used to its customs? Perhaps, but only because they might try to influence it.
- what if they are both not fertile?
- what if non of their children survive?
- what if non of their children want to become heir? I can see them not forcing them to do it.
3. Eirika marries Seth: she stays in Renais and this one is actually (imo) the one pairing where it would be the most probable that her child becomes heir. But:
- what if neither of them is fertile?
- what if all their children die?
So, are the chances that those things happen, especially infertility, so small that it is worth risking it?
No. They are the last of their family. They have to do everything to ensure that they don't die out. And Ephraim can't put all responsibility on Eirika´s shoulders. It would not be possible that he never marries. He has to at least try to get heirs. This is not a question of wanting, but having to do (something). He's king. He has to do things he might not like but which are necessary. There is no choice involved.
So, Ephraim has to marry. It wouldn't have to do anything with love and if he finds a wife who understands this, there is no problem. Just find the daughter of the noble who has the best connections/most money/has things you need/is someone you need an alliance with and marry her. That easy. And advantageous.
Related to that: one child is not enough. I know that is more thinking of real life here, but; what if it dies? There's a plague, it has a stupid accident, whatever. Death can come quickly. There needs to be some security that at least one child lives long enough to marry itself and continue the line. Yes, real life example here and before the time FE is more or less located timewise, but bear with me; Charlemange. He had twelve children (at least) and five sons. Four of them should inherit his empire (the child of his first wife was excluded). Unfortunately in the end only one son lived long enough to be able to inherit the empire. Of course it is arguable if this could apply to Magvel at all, especially before the game happenings. But how does the situation after the war look like? Destruction and zombies everywhere. Perfect for sicknesses and illnesses to turn into pandemics. Shortage on food and money. Poverty. In such a time of unrest they shouldn't risk anything.
So, a king not having any children of his own: not believable in my opinion. I would need a very good explanation to believe it.
And for Uther: if people really believe the sickness his parents died of is hereditary then he should get many children as well. Hector doesn't seem to have the sickness so maybe at least one of Uther´s children might be spared as well. His sickness is, imo, an argument for children/marriage, not against it.
Which reminds me; marriage = alliance. Why would you want to waste the chance to forge such a firm alliance? Real life practice again: that was what daughters were for. Forging alliances (Being like hostages in a way). And it's not like the daughters were stupid and just send there to sit around and birth children. For the fathers marrying a daughter to an enemy to make peace meant having one of your own "men" behind the enemies lines. That could be highly practicable. (It still was no fun for the daughters, but, uhm, well it was like that, unfortunately and they couldn't do much against it) Which makes the whole "king/queen not marrying" even more unlikely.
And related to that; in the case of Eirika/Innes I personally think that Ephraim/Tana is highly unlikely. They already have one tie with Frelia. They shouldn't waste the opportunity; Ephraim should marry someone from the other countries. Grado would be a good option, I believe. Building friendly connections with them can only be to Ephraim´s and Grado´s advantage. Maybe the daughter of an influential noble.
so tl;dr I want a nice discussion about Ephraim´s single status because I find it improbable.
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(no subject)
6/6/11 20:56 (UTC)There's also the fact that Eirika and Ephraim could very easily be treated as equal rulers. There's nothing saying they aren't, really. If Eirika marries within Renais and begets heirs, then, well, there you go. There's no absolute need for Ephraim to do the same, and in theory, it could result in all sorts of heir dispute shenanigans. He might even prefer not to have children and let Eirika's bloodline take over. (Eirika, also, could easily do the same.)
And finally. . . Ephraim doesn't seem to care what people think of him. He cares about Renais surviving, and being the ideal king - and it could even be that he considers courtship and fatherhood an unnecessary distraction to that. If he decided something like that? No one would talk him out of it.
I can't see him not marrying and begetting heirs if Eirika went with Innes. If she went with any of her other options, though - even Saleh - I think it's possible.
I'm not going to say EPHRAIM CAN'T EVER MARRY - he sure can. But it's also extremely plausible that he might not - and the same goes for Eirika.
(no subject)
6/6/11 21:22 (UTC)Yeah, but what if non of her children survive? What would he do then? Just shrug and say "Oh my. My family has died out, someone else has to take over". Wouldn't that be a sign of a bad king?
That's what inheritance laws are for.
But how can he be an ideal king without heirs? (If we assume for a moment that Eirika´s kids can't inherit) His kingdom would be "lost" to him. How can he make sure someone worthy continues his work? How can a king with seemingly no forethought or ignores the possibility that something might go wrong be ideal? Of course, Ephraim could still believe that but his logic would be obviously faulty.
Yeah, they might. I just find it highly illogical in their situation and a waste of opportunities ;P
(no subject)
6/6/11 21:29 (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian_of_Portugal
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_the_Confessor
/cue Innes as William the Conqueror, LOL.
(no subject)
6/6/11 21:55 (UTC)But as far as it looks like they had heirs up in their sleeves. Which Ephraim hasn't (yet).
(no subject)
6/6/11 22:02 (UTC)So, if Eirika/Saleh have their daughter, already Eph's in a better position.
(no subject)
6/6/11 22:08 (UTC)Maybe I'm too pragmatic to see it from another perspective >:/
(no subject)
7/6/11 03:45 (UTC)I agree with you that it's short-sighted of Ephraim to not tend to that particular detail. But I also played Shadow Dragon thinking everyone involved was nuts for allowing the Last Hope of Humanity to go skipping off to war without having an heir or two of his own stashed away somewhere on Talys, so pretty clearly my idea of sensible contingency planning doesn't line up with that of Intelligent Systems.
(no subject)
6/6/11 21:30 (UTC)I find it more likely that Eirika would have lots of children in this (very specific) situation (and canonically, she is fertile) than having Ephraim marry, really.
As for the ideal king thing? That could be taken as either the perfect well-rounded king - fantastic father, loving husband, amazing ruler - or the black and white AWESOME AT SPECIFICALLY KINGLY THINGS way at the expense of everything else.
Personally, I think Ephraim leans more toward the latter.
(no subject)
6/6/11 21:45 (UTC)But only with Saleh, right? I can't remember if any other supports of her mention children. And it would be enough if Innes or Seth aren't fertile anymore. Of course, if this works Ephraim might be inclined to not marry and I guess they could organize everything.
Roflmao, Ephraim would tend to the latter. However, I can't see Eirika not telling him that he's doing it wrong. And in my interpretation of Ephraim he would listen, look at it form all sides and understand that getting heirs might be a kingly duty as well.
(no subject)
6/6/11 21:47 (UTC)Eh, to each his own. All I'm saying is it's definitely possible, and not really extraordinarily unlikely :3
(no subject)
6/6/11 21:57 (UTC)Oh, I do think that Ephraim might be stubborn enough to get his way... only that in my opinion it's stupid of him. :3
(no subject)
7/6/11 03:40 (UTC)IIRC, none of Ephraim's endings mention children. It may be significant.
look at it form all sides and understand that getting heirs might be a kingly duty as well.
Let's play Devil's Advocate-- is it at all possible, given what played out in Grado-- plus the number of possible royal/commoner hookups postwar-- that there might be a reduced emphasis on bloodline kingship, leading more to "elected" kings or adopted heirs or something else that doesn't leave massive power in the hands of frail and unstable biological heirs?
There's another means of getting around the heir issue, anyway.
(no subject)
7/6/11 07:53 (UTC)Hmhm, that could be and is intriguing.
It might. (Personally I believe that Crimea has a "selected family becomes royal" system.) Though I believe such a huge change would take quite some time and if they don't watch out it might destabilize Renais more (prospective "heir" competing with each other).
Damn it, all this talk makes me crave post-war fic with all those shenanigans.
(no subject)
6/6/11 20:57 (UTC)Now, with Uther... there was a bit in FE6 that never really got cleared up in FE7, where Hector is apparently the half-brother of the marquess of... Worde, I want to say? He was never mentioned in FE7, which kind of makes me think that there's more to their family dynamic than we see. It's certainly possible that Uther had kids, but then why would Lilina become marchioness after the war if they were still around? Did they get killed in the rebellion? Speaking of which, considering how many revolution plots have been cooked up against Ostia, it's certainly possible that Uther and his parents didn't just die of natural causes.
Also, I read on Serenes Forest that Lilina and Thito were originally supposed to be cousins, so maybe she was originally Uther's daughter? It wouldn't work given what we know now, but it's at least something they considered.
(no subject)
6/6/11 21:17 (UTC)Interesting about Lilina and Thito!
(no subject)
6/6/11 21:28 (UTC)(no subject)
6/6/11 21:45 (UTC)(no subject)
6/6/11 21:27 (UTC)But thinking back now, the daughters thing might be a bit irrelevant XD I mostly wanted to say that there are wasted opportunities. I believe. Fffff, what does my mind do.
Oh, the kids could be dead so that only Hector as heir is left (if they have a father->son inheritance law and a brother->brother subclause if there are no kids. If they have a brother->brother law with a father->son subclause when there are no brothers, that would be different and the kids wouldn't have inherited anything anyway). I just don't like the thought that he had non at all.
(no subject)
6/6/11 21:26 (UTC)So I don't think the FE designers are necessarily taking pragmatism into account. You're also dealing with royal families who don't practice arranged marriages that we see (in Magvel, anyway), who allow children to reach adulthood without even the glimmer of a prospective spouse in their lives, who don't appear to be in any rush to perpetuate the dynasty.
Also, I counter your Charlemagne with Edward the Confessor. Makes no damned sense in our eyes, but he did what he did and was beloved for it. Ditto Dom Sebastian of Portugal.
So, yes. Ephraim as a perpetually single, "wedded to his country" romantic-type king could very easily go down well with the people... especially if Eirika does have a nice healthy Caer Pelyn-bred daughter or a red-haired son.
(no subject)
6/6/11 21:32 (UTC)(no subject)
6/6/11 21:37 (UTC)Yes, which would be connected with their strange state of peacefulness for 800 years. Their customs grew lax, but I don't believe that would exclude a change after a world war. I don't believe they can risk anything now in this situation.
He could. But it could also be the complete opposite; what if the people want to see hope in the sense of the king they now look up to continuing the bloodline and with it guarantering that Renais will get better? I'm just wondering how the thought that Eirika might not have children has never crossed anybody´s mind.
(no subject)
7/6/11 03:43 (UTC)I've thought about it. I made Eirika childless in one of my stories (though Ephraim married L'Arachel and had a child in that one). But two of Eirika's endings mention children (the Saleh one and the Tana one), and none of her brother's do, so it's more likely that she's the one to continue the line, IMO. We know that she can, anyway.